The Winner's Mindset with Jason Fowler

Greg Dowling (00:06): Welcome to the FEG Insight Bridge. This is Greg Dowling, Head of Research and CIO at FEG. This show spans global markets and institutional investments through conversations with some of the world's leading investment, economic, and philanthropic minds to provide insight on how institutional investors can survive and even thrive in the world of markets and finance. While some firms have golf outings, FEG is a little different. We host a hockey event. The first year was a friendly game between our investment managers and us. It was a lot of fun and created a lot of positive energy. What better way to channel that positive energy than partnering with a charity? And a hockey game needs a hockey charity. Ultimately, we decided to partner with the Cincinnati IceBreakers. The IceBreakers are a not-for-profit providing adaptive ice hockey for people with physical impairments. This was our first introduction to adaptive sports and what a fun journey it has been. Through this adaptive sports community, we were introduced to our next podcast guest, Jason Fowler. He has quite the tale to tell. It is an inspirational story of how a world-class athlete overcame a devastating physical injury to eventually return to become a major champion in adaptive sports. Jason is a competitor, a coach, and a motivational speaker. We will hear about overcoming life's obstacles, reaching for greatness, and the winner's mindset. Jason has been featured on ESPN, CBS News, and many other media outlets. Hear his amazing story today on the Insight Bridge. Jason, welcome to the FEG Insight Bridge.

Jason Fowler (01:43): Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.

Greg Dowling (01:45): Yeah, we're excited, too. You have an amazing story, and I can't wait for folks to hear it. Would you mind introducing yourself and maybe just kind of the basics?

Jason Fowler (01:53): Yeah, I grew up racing motocross at the age of 6 and 7 and raced 40 weekends a year for my childhood. A lot has happened since then, which I'm sure we'll get into. And since then, I've gone on to college and sales and education and wheelchair racing and triathlons. And just for me now, I'm a mental performance coach for youth athletes. And so that's really what fires me up these days. But that's kind of the basics of my background.

Greg Dowling (02:19): We're going to hear about your story. We're going to hear about you competing, about coaching, and also motivating. So we're going to hit all those things. You mentioned it. On an early age, I mean, you were pretty darn good at motocross. At 11, you got your first sponsorship. You won like eight New England championships. And you were probably going to choose that as a profession. You were going to go pro. And then what happened?

Jason Fowler (02:38): Everything was focused towards being a professional and being sponsored by Kawasaki, one of the major manufacturers, on their amateur team. And then I was out practicing one day, just like I did every day. And it was early release day for us in the middle of March, and it was a warm one. So we all went out to the place in the forest that we normally did and practicing some hole shots, which is just basically from zero to 30, 40 miles an hour all at once. And I didn't see a rock in some grass. My bike hit a rock. It sent me flying. Landed straight down on my head, and, of course, I had helmet on, everything like that. And it compressed all the way down my spine and severed my spinal cord just below the chest and basically paralyzed me from that point down. At the moment, I didn't know exactly what had happened. I was shook up a little bit. But, yeah, just a big event, right? Especially as a 17-year-old at this point.

Greg Dowling (03:24): This happens, were you with other people? You're paralyzed. Walk me through this.

Jason Fowler (03:28): I didn't even really know what that meant. In the moment, I'm just like, my lower body feels disconnected. And so I was with three other people, three of my buddies that I grew up racing with and practicing with. And the moment that I remember the most vividly was my friend, Brian, was there, and the other two went to go get help. I was kind of just -- still had my helmet on. It was a little bit of an incline, I believe. And I said, "Take my boot off." And I said it again, like 30 seconds later. And he's like, "I did." And at that moment, I knew something was off. I was like, "I didn't feel a thing." I knew something pretty big was off, and I just didn't know what that meant at that moment.

Greg Dowling (04:02): I imagine they rush you to the hospital, and you get there. It's got to start to be sinking in, right? You're 17 years old. I would say that that would probably weigh on anybody at any age, right? But you're 17 years old. You don't really have that perspective of time. What is it like for a 17-year-old processing that they may lose their life's work and passion up to that point?

Jason Fowler 04:23): Definitely it was just really scary. I was in a little bit of pain, but not horrible. And the doctor comes into the triage room, and my parents were there. And he said, "Well, I've got good and bad news. The bad news is, you severed your spinal cord, and you're never going to walk again. And the good news is, people with your sort of injury, they live sort of normal, active lives." And I'm just thinking like, "What does that mean?" I'm just thinking like wheelchair? Can I live on my own? The basic necessities of life, so just really scary, really scary at that moment to sort of know what my life was going to look like and be. And shortly after there, just sort of like, as you mentioned it, some sadness, really for several months, that this had happened and just not knowing what the future was going to hold.

Greg Dowling (05:06): I can only imagine. Crazy thing is, if it was me, I would crawl into a hole, and I'm not sure I'd get out. You weren't down long, right? I mean, you pretty quickly kind of focused your attention on other things. How did that happen?

Jason Fowler (05:18): I tell this story quite a bit to people. It was about a week and a half or not even maybe, around that time period. I was still in the hospital. My mom came in, and she's just like, "We're going to feel bad for ourselves for a couple of weeks. And then like, let's get on with this rehab and just get on with life." That mentality is kind of how we all, as a team, attacked the rehab and getting home. And was checked out against medical advice after a few weeks because I was only getting a couple hours of medical attention at the time and thought, "You know what? I just -- I'd heal a lot better at home." And so having family and friends there were really the things that allowed me to move forward. And I think growing up as a motocross athlete, you sort of learn to be tough, and you learn to just sort of have goals and go after them. And so I just kept pushing in that direction of like, what can I do? It's just sort of move forward. And, of course, I was sad, and, of course, I was a little bit angry, and, of course, all those things. But my background really sort of helped me move through that period of time.

Greg Dowling (06:12): I would think in motocross, you're falling off quite a bit. There's not a time where you never fall, right? So you kind of have to get back up on the bike and go. That's some tough love from your mom. How did you feel about that?

Jason Fowler (06:22): We just sort of grew to expect that from my mom. That felt right. It was just like, yeah, that's -- It sucks. Let's move forward quickly after it. I'm just like, "Okay, here's mom again." But at the same time, that only sort of helped. We still grieved. We still went through that process, and that took a little bit of time. I had fallen off, had broken bones before, and was out for a few months. And then you come back, and you're better. You're stronger. You're refreshed and ready to go. And this wasn't going to be one of those times. I knew that, and that was probably the hardest thing to accept. Again, you're just 17. You kind of -- You don't know better in a lot of ways when you're 17, just what it really means, and that was definitely a challenging time.

Greg Dowling (06:59): So I love the story. Tell me the story about how you decided to get into wheelchair racing.

Jason Fowler (07:04): The interesting part, that the seed was planted when I was in the hospital in April, and the Boston Marathon was going on. For those of you that are from New England, you know the Boston Marathon is in the third Monday of April every year, and I saw that on the television. I saw the wheelchair division, and I was like, "Wow, that is so cool." And I saw this guy, David Bailey, in the race that year. He was a guy that had similar injury to mine and was in motocross, and he was a champion in motocross as a professional and had a similar injury. And I thought, "I want to do that. That's going to be me." And so I had that seed planted. And then I borrowed a racing wheelchair from a friend of a friend after about 5 1/2, 6 months after my injury, that summer. Maybe it wasn't even that long. And I just started doing road races. And I'll never forget jumping in that chair. It was like, "Oh, this is horrible," because it was just starting over. It was like going from really good at something to really not good, and so that part was horrible. But at the same time, it was all I had. It was kind of like my lifeline to just do something with my body and mind to distract me from what I had going on. And, really, it just allowed me to focus on what I had and not what I didn't have at that moment.

Greg Dowling (08:10): Do you think that helped you, just having something to focus on like that? Because you're starting to relearn your body, right? What you can do, what you can't do. And to be able to have something to kind of train for, was that helpful?

Jason Fowler (08:21): I think as equally as it inspired and motivated me, it sort of crowded out a lot of the negative emotions. Because if you can imagine all of a sudden you're thrown into a wheelchair, in those first few months, and figuring out your bladder and your bowels and transferring from your wheelchair to the car, everything was just kind of a struggle. And I got into this chair, and I was horrible at it. I was not good, and I was slow, but it just gave me something to do that was different. And I could just kind of see a pathway. I'm like, "Okay, marathon, road races, something." That was it. That just sort of lit a fire under me. I attacked that just like I did my motocross.

Greg Dowling (08:54): And you qualified your first time for the Boston Marathon, right?

Jason Fowler (08:58): Actually, my second time. Interesting enough, the first time I chose a marathon to try to qualify, up in the hills and mountains of New Hampshire, which is not a good choice, being that it's so hilly. But my second try I did at the Lowell Marathon. And so 2 years after my accident, I was the youngest competitor in the race. I believe I was 19. That was awesome. And interesting enough, it's one of my faster times, was that first race. I still -- I trained a lot and did really well. So it definitely lit a fire under me.

Greg Dowling (09:26): You probably didn't know better to pace yourself, right? So you probably just went all after it and ended up with a good time.

Jason Fowler (09:31): Yeah! Yeah, just got at it.

Greg Dowling (09:33): I love that, though. Two years prior, you're in your hospital bed. You kind of see this race going on, but you're like, "I'm going to do this." And you do it. That's not really the end of the story, right? Because you do that, and you've done that a lot. But at some point, you get bored with that, right?

Jason Fowler (09:46): Yeah, interesting enough, I did about 30, 35 races, almost 40, I guess, in about 8 years. I went to college. I went to a university that focused on wheelchair sports and athletics, at University of Illinois, for a couple years and Northeastern University in Boston. And so I really got into sports and athletics and trying to be better and sort of on this Paralympic path, which didn't sort of work out. I wasn't good enough and -- or just didn't have the right formula at that time, and then got bored with that. And interesting enough, I was watching the IRONMAN triathlon on the television and saw that same person, David Bailey, who I saw do the marathon, finish an IRONMAN. And if you're not familiar with an IRONMAN, it's a 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike, and a 26.2-mile marathon. And for the swim, I use braces on my legs to keep them straight, and then it's just upper body. And then on the bike, I use a handbike, so an arm-powered bike that has bicycle components. And in the run, I use the racing wheelchair, which I use in the marathons. And so I saw that, and that lit a fire. And at that point, I hadn't swam before. I didn't have a handcycle. I only had the marathon portion down. So I did the same thing. I raised money and got a handcycle and got a swim coach. And it took me a couple years to kind of figure that out, and did a small triathlon, I guess 2 years later. That for me now has been my sport.

Greg Dowling (10:57): Also pretty crazy, 2 years later, you're doing that. Talk about that. I mean, you're pretty good at it, right?

Jason Fowler (11:03): Yeah! Yeah, so I guess in the last 21 years, I've won three world championships, two IRONMAN World Championships, one Half IRONMAN World Championship. It hasn't come without its ups and downs and challenges as well, just in the way of starting something new. Again, I went from not really swimming or knowing how to swim and not knowing how to bike and having even the equipment to do it. If you fast forward about 5 years from the original time, I got to the trials to qualify. And I qualified my first time to go to the world championships, which are always held on the big island of Hawaii. At least, until the last year, it has been. So I got there, and I didn't finish. So you have to finish the swim in a certain amount of time and the bike in a certain amount of time. I didn't make the time cutoff because I was just too slow. I got seasick in the swim. You can imagine it's not a great way to start any competition. For a race, that takes me about 11 to 12 hours. So I committed to myself that I was going to come back and do it again. And for 4 straight years, I failed. I failed to qualify. I'm trying harder. I'm getting new equipment. I'm improving myself. And finally, something just clicks, and I just mentally sort of turn the page and really find another gear in my training and preparation and stop making excuses, and all the things that sort of weigh us down. I'm able to qualify for the world championships, won the trials, got to the world championships and got second place in 2008. Even being dissatisfied with second place, this guy from Germany beat me, and I wasn't happy with that. And I went back. And ironically enough, my childhood hero, David, who inspired me to do the race, was at the race in 2009. And we got to battle. We had just sort of an all-day battle, like really close cat-and-mouse game, and I was able to win the race and win my first world championships. And really, at that moment, it was really a culmination of, well, 9 and, I guess, almost 18 years of work to get to that place that allowed me to win the race. And so life was pretty good at that moment, let's just say that. Yeah.

Greg Dowling (12:58): That's fantastic. Have you had a chance to tell David that he was your inspiration?

Jason Fowler (13:02): We met at the trials, and I beat him at the trials by a few minutes. And so we communicated that whole summer before the race. There was about a 5-month period between the trials and the world championships, and so we were able to really connect over that summer, like, "How's your training going?" and all that. And at that moment, I really expressed that he was my inspiration for the whole thing, and especially after, for sure.

Greg Dowling (13:22): Oh, that's cool.

Jason Fowler (13:23): Yeah, pretty special.

Greg Dowling (13:24): And I'm sure you're somebody's inspiration, right? And there's probably somebody else that, they're looking at Jason Fowler going, "I'm going to do that." So it's kind of cool to pay it forward a little bit.

Jason Fowler (13:32): Yeah! Yeah, actually, one of my best friends now, Rob Costa, he actually -- We did the race again in October 2024. And he's somebody that's been injured about 5 years, and I helped him in his process, over the last 5 years, to get to the world championships and helping as much as I can for him, in his process. And so he finished the race as well, behind me, which was good.

Greg Dowling (13:52): You don't want to coach him that well, right?

Jason Fowler (13:53): Yeah, I told him I taught him more than I know, that's for sure. And I don't know how much longer I can hold him off, which it's been fun.

Greg Dowling (13:59): We've talked a lot about your competition, but you had a long career in medical sales. And now you've been able to get to a point in your life where you've been able to retire and just focus on the competing part, but also coaching and motivating. So I wanted to hit on those two aspects a little bit, maybe starting with just motivation. And what do you tell someone who -- Maybe it's your buddy, who just got injured 5 years ago, or anybody who's had a major life issue, whether it's emotional or physical. How do you talk to them about getting up and getting back at it? What's your advice?

Jason Fowler (14:29): It's a complicated question. The first thing I would say for all of us -- and because the world is so complex, it's just hard. Things that happen are just hard for people and for all of us, whether you've had an injury, or you just struggle with your day-to-day. The first step is really getting clear on what you want, what it is that you dream to be, what it is you dream to have, and how silly or small or large, whatever those are. And for me, I think it's important to have a sort of master dream. It's your true north. It's something that really orients you in the direction that you're going. Anything that we try to accomplish in our life, anything that's worthwhile and big and good, and it always takes so much time and so much energy and effort and consistency. And you have to be resilient and mentally flexible and all those things, and you can't teach those things. And so motivating people to do that, I think it has to come from within. It has to come from a thought that's really deep inside of you, that you're not willing to give up when it gets really hard. And to do that, that thought and vision has to be really strong. And you can't listen to other people telling you, you can't do it, or even the other thoughts in your head that you're like, "Oh, I can't do that. I don't have this, or I haven't done that. I don't have this degree. I don't have this money. I don't have" -- Your brain will come up with a thousand reasons why you can't do something. And the only way through that is to really crowd out those negative thoughts, and I believe that to do that is having a vision. And it just takes one step at a time and breaking that down into smaller goals, so that you can begin to develop the skills and confidence that move you in the direction of those dreams and goals. And once that catches fire, man, watch out. No matter what it is, no matter how small it is, it's amazing how you just have a good day, and that leads to another good day, leads to another component of your goal and dream. And I believe it starts with starting your day with a really strong and clear vision of what it is you want.

Greg Dowling (16:10): So have a clear vision. And then from there, break it down to the steps to achieve that vision. For you, it might have been, "I'm watching the Boston Marathon, and I want to do that." And maybe the first step was, "I'm going to get a racing chair, and I'm going to participate in my first race." Is it like this, breaking it down versus you didn't set the goal? I'm going to be a world champion.

Jason Fowler (16:29): Yeah! Yeah, that was it. My first was just, can I get to this race? Can I just compete? Can I do that? And then ironically enough, after 3 or 4 years, not qualifying and not in that place, I decided I needed to win the race. Even though I wasn't qualifying and all that, I needed really like a jolt that would change my behavior in such a way that it just would push me to another level. And for me, it was just starting to believe that I could win this race. But that was definitely not at first. At first was the simple things. The most foundational thing was getting a bike. I got a new bike that put myself in a different sitting position that was more powerful, and I could access more of the muscle I have. I got a coach and got better technique in the water with body position and all that, and so just the most foundational things. And so, what I mean by that is just, how do you break down any goal, right? It's just, what's the foundation to it? Okay, you have to have a strong mind, no matter what it is. You have to have a strong body because if you want to do it every single day, you have to physically be good. And that's not just for physical goals. That's for work goals. That's for business goals. That's for anything in life, is having a strong body to be able to withstand the rigors of everyday consistency. And so, it really just comes back to like the foundational things, but I believe that if you hold that vision in place, that really is the energy and motivation that we all need.

Greg Dowling (17:40): I wanted to kind of get to your coaching a little bit. You had that situation where you had 4 years of failure. You've already achieved a lot of your dream, right? And you've kind of gotten into the Boston Marathon. You did 30 marathons. You did pretty well. But it's kind of getting to this next level, and you kind of plateaued. You're kind of stuck. How do you motivate an athlete that's done pretty well, but they're just kind of stuck? What's that look like?

Jason Fowler (18:04): What I find is that -- and I was guilty of this as well, is that we have the same thought process that happens over and over. And we tend to just kind of think something happens, and no matter what that is that happens, we tend to think the same way, and those same patterns continuing just to hold us back, regardless of the circumstances and the situation. We have to break that pattern, and the way in which we break that pattern is, we have to be stronger than our environment. There's just no way past that. And I believe the way in which we do that is, we get a coach. We get an accountability partner, somebody that you could train with. I trained for the IRONMAN this last time. We didn't train a lot physically together, but mentally we would share like, "Hey, how'd your training go?" with my friend Rob, who I was coaching. And so having others to really share the process with and to push us and to keep that energy alive that really moves us forward, those are key parts.

Greg Dowling (18:48): So even though you have attained a pretty high level, even coaches need coaches, right? People need others around them who have a shared vision and an idea, who can kind of help push everybody forward and help you on those poor days, which is probably interesting for some people. Some people would be like, "Oh, I got this on my own." But you've really embraced the accountability from others.

Jason Fowler (19:08): Yeah, it's been a big part. And I think we all can relate to that in a sense. I know that even in my business career, we'd go to a business meeting, or we'd have a company meeting, or we'd have an outing. And all of a sudden, you get together, you start chatting. And then, all of a sudden, you're really excited about the next chapter or the next thing. And it was the same thing with workouts. It's like, oh, you needed to get your butt kicked on a really long 70-mile bike ride to be like, "Oh, okay, I need to be better." Or like, "Oh, I'm in a really good place." And both of those scenarios increased my confidence, like, okay, I know what I need to do. I know where I'm at, and now I just have to do the work. Every event would make me stronger, better, faster in that way. But it really started with, what's the thought process that I'm having? What are the thoughts I'm having? So if, all of a sudden, you're recognizing that everything you have is sort of thinking like, "I can't do this," that's not a sign that you shouldn't do it. It's a sign you need to clean up your thoughts. Because we know that sometimes our thoughts really just kind of keep us safe. If you want to be safe, and you want to play small, then that's okay, too. But just realizing that those thoughts really have a lot of power, and sometimes not listening to them and telling them that you're in charge is important, right? I believe, if you can think about it, on either shoulder, there's like one guy that's telling you like, "You got this, man. You're awesome." And then other days, he's like, "You are such a loser. I can't believe you can't do that." And who do you listen to? Who do you listen to? And so you got to make that guy on your left shoulder that's encouraging you, you got to make that voice louder. Otherwise, it'll always get you, and especially at those times where -- I find it all the time with my athletes, especially pre-competition, where you're just a little bit more vulnerable, and you're a little nervous, and you're in all those circumstances. And this happens to all of us. We just have bad days. We have bad moments, and the opposite is true as well. So it's just interesting how it's so much of it is the mental game, which is why I became a coach, and why I'm trying to help other athletes reach for their best.

Greg Dowling (20:48): How do you coach failure? Do you tell them to accept it, and you just had a bad day? Especially when you've failed multiple times?

Jason Fowler (20:54): None of us ever feel better when someone comes up to us after something bad that's happened. I had an athlete, actually yesterday, I was coaching, who just -- who has an injury, is waiting to hear from the doctor today and some final words. I'm like, "There's nothing I can say right now that's going to make you feel better." I said, "We can only kind of give ourselves the tool." We know that no matter who we are, we always have to go through hard things. And so I just sort of explained the process of, we go through hard things, and that's what makes us who we are. That's how it makes us and gives us the grit and the tenacity to not quit when it gets hard. And so we're never going to get away from those things. And just know that it always is better to think these things are happening for us and not to us. And, of course, in the moment, really believing that, it doesn't make you feel better, but it's still information. It's still information that we can choose to just put there and try to accept. Even if it's not true, that it's not happening for us, it's better that it does. Otherwise, what's the alternative? I'm horrible. I can't do this. I don't have the skills. I don't have the -- We're just looking for ways to move forward. And the interesting part is, we get the lesson when it happens. We get the hard lesson like, I'm not going to do that again, right? And so we already have the lesson. We just need to move on from the lesson really quick. I don't ever want to exclude people from the heartache. You want them to feel it, so that they make sure it doesn't happen again, and they do their best moving forward. But we just don't want to live with it for a long period of time, so that it brings us down and really stunts our possibility of what's next.

Greg Dowling (22:19): Acknowledge it, but don't drown in it.

Jason Fowler (22:20): Yeah.

Greg Dowling (22:21): Keep moving. I love that. That is amazing advice. I wanted to talk a little bit of just on adaptive sports. You were able to kind of get a racing chair secondhand and that kind of helped, and there are probably a lot more options these days. If there's a listener out there, who maybe personally wants to get involved or has a friend or family member and wants to get into adaptive sports, how do they start? Are there resources?

Jason Fowler (22:44): There's some great organizations now, and they've actually supported me, in the past, in some of my racing and early on. Even a few years ago, when I financially didn't have the means to get some new equipment. The first one is Challenged Athletes Foundation, and they're based out of San Diego. And the second one is the Kelly Brush Foundation. And they both donate equipment and raise money for spinal cord injury folks and just people with disabilities and challenges, and they help raise money for that equipment. But what's cool -- and I know that especially Kelly Brush right now, they've sort of developed this system where you can contact them and even on their website. And they give resources for newly injured folks, equipment, and how to just travel with your racing chair, or get into racing and the technique that's involved, or skiing or basketball or mountain biking, which is a huge new sport or -- There's just anything and everything you can think of. They're just an amazing resource. And if they don't have the answer, I'm sure they can find out because they are just really well-connected. And people that have similar injuries to ours, no matter who you are, are all involved with those organizations. And so start with those two organizations as a starting point.

Greg Dowling (23:48): The adaptive sports community seems to be such amazing just family. It seems like everybody wants to help each other. It's pretty amazing. And so, even just finding someone who's maybe in the sport, right? If you find a sport they're interested in, or you found someone that inspired you, and I see more and more people willing to help and make those financial commitments to try to have those resources available.

Jason Fowler (24:08): I've learned everything that I know, or most everything, either through my own falling on my face or from others in chairs that really guided me early on like, "This is what you got to do. You got to make sure you have the right cushion. You got to make sure you're taking care of this. This is the kind of attire I use. This is the kind of special glove I use." And you just -- You learn so much from others that have already gone through it, and that's such a huge part. I try to coach newly injured guys and gals and pay it forward in that way. I think it makes a big difference for folks, learning on others that have gone through it.

Greg Dowling (24:35): What's the biggest issue for someone who's new to this sport? Is it just having the financial resources to get the equipment?

Jason Fowler (24:41): I think, honestly, it's seeing a pathway that you can be okay. At first, you're so debilitated in your ability, in the sense of just physically being able to get around and not seeing that pathway. And so it's just seeing that, oh, this person has the same injuries as me? If he can do it, I can do it. And so I think that really is the first step, is just, again, having that vision, having that clarity as to, I can be okay here. I can be okay. This can be okay. We have to kind of accept that. And I can maybe even heal. Maybe I can walk again. Maybe I can -- And seeing others that have gone through that. Every circumstance, I guess, and injury is really different, and so it's hard to know in that regards. But it just gives you hope no matter what that is.

Greg Dowling (25:17): That's great. So what's next for Jason Fowler?

Jason Fowler (25:20): I'm continuing to invest my time and energy to coaching and helping others and hopefully spending a lot more time with that. And I'm on the fence as to what competitions are next. Although I did sign up for the Boston Marathon in April of this year, 2025, and I may do one Half IRONMAN. And then depending upon how much training I do this year, which I've committed to myself that if I can be faster, stronger, better than I was last year, then I'll do some more IRONMAN stuff. We'll see. We'll see how that goes. But really, it's giving back and in that chapter of my life, where I'm wanting to see others thrive and help them do that. That's what fires me up.

Greg Dowling (25:54): What's one fun fact that nobody knows about you that would be interesting?

Jason Fowler (25:59): Interesting fun fact that no one knows about me? You know what? I hadn't -- this is something -- I have no idea. I don't even know where to start on that. You know what? It's so interesting. Some people see that I've done IRONMAN, and they've seen that I've done all these athletic things. They always think like, oh, I'm such a naturally talented athlete. I can do all this stuff. And I don't think people realize I may have the drive and the competitive part that I wasn't born with, I don't believe, but I slowly was taught through a lot of failure. I have -- Everything that I start, I'm naturally horrible at. No matter what the sport is. I've tried to ski. I'm horrible. I tried to cycle. I'm not good. Everything that I've tried, I wasn't good at first. And so I think most people don't know that I'm really not an amazing athlete. I just sort of make myself into it through really hard work. Yeah, so that's probably something that most people don't know. They just sort of assume like, "Oh, he's just a good athlete." I'm like, no, no, not exactly.

Greg Dowling (26:54): See, it makes it even more impressive that you've started all of these things and have just been really bad. Just hard work and determination and having that clear vision, no natural ability whatsoever. I find that a little hard to believe, but I love the false modesty.

Jason Fowler (27:09): I would just say the majority of it is definitely not the natural. You see some people, you're just like, "Whoa, that's impressive." And I'm like, "That's just not me."

Greg Dowling (27:17): Kind of the working man's athlete, that's Jason Fowler. I like it. I like it. Well, Jason, thank you for sharing the winner's mindset with us.

Jason Fowler (27:25): Thank you. Thanks for having me, Greg. I've appreciated our conversation.

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